Leveraging Meta, LinkedIn and Programmatic for B2B Ads

This episode shares insights from digital marketing experts in various industries on strategies and challenges in leveraging platforms like LinkedIn, Meta, and Programmatic for B2B marketing. Key takeaways included the need for precise targeting, balancing brand and lead gen, multi-channel optimization, and solving attribution issues given long sales cycles. Perspectives highlighted contextual differences across verticals and buying groups, emphasizing the need to tailor approaches to thrive amidst rapidly evolving martech.

Guests

Luke Rose-Smith, Paid Media Specialist,  SureCloud
Charles Oben Digital Marketing Manager, TalkTalk Business
James Palmer Paid Media Specialist, AbCam

Transcript

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [00:00 - 00:33]
welcome, everyone, to our podcast, The Future of B2B Digital Marketing. Today we are focusing on how to effectively use platforms like Facebook, Google, LinkedIn. We have an impressive panel with us and we will start discussing your challenges in in your B2B strategy and how to leverage the different platforms. So let's start with a quick round of introductions. James, would you like to start?

James Palmer - [00:33 - 00:48]
Sure. Thanks for having me on. My name is James. I work with Abcam as a digital media specialist at a biotechnology firm based in Cambridge, and I primarily work in platforms like LinkedIn, Google and third party trade publications.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [00:48 - 00:48]
Luke Rose-Smith - [00:48 - 01:11]
I'm Luke Ross-smith. I'm a paid media specialist at Shaw Cloud, who are a GRC software provider in the cybersecurity space. And prior to that, I've been a digital performance director at B2B marketing agency, specializing in creating and implementing multichannel strategies. So this is a perfect topic for me.

Charles Oben - [01:11 - 01:32]
Hi. So I'm Charles, digital marketing manager for TalkTalk business. I look after all of our online channels from paid social, PPC, SEO, display, programmatic, you name it. I'd like to summarize my role as trying to get as much volume for as much value as possible. So volume in terms of sales and value in terms of lowest, CPA and lowest.

Tom Gatten - [01:32 - 01:59]
And yeah, my name is Tom and I'm the chief executive of Ads Act, which is a B2B ad platform, but also obviously really new company founded in February of this year. So Joaquin and I are the marketing team, so we spend a lot of time staring at numbers of, you know, clicks and awareness. And 75% of the video watched how many people, you know, that's all their numbers still. Yeah.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [01:59 - 02:33]
And I'm Joaquin Dominguez and I'm head of marketing of Artsact. And we are hosting this podcast. So welcome everyone. As I told you before, we will start talking about your challenges. Okay. So, james, you, you work in, in the life science space with a focus on research. So can you talk us about the specific challenges in targeting and reaching your your niche audience in your sector?

James Palmer - [02:33 - 03:50]
Yeah, absolutely. So just to provide a little bit of context, Abcam obviously exists in the life sciences space. Primarily, we produce and sell antibodies and other research chemicals to help life scientists with their research. It means that our audience is simultaneously very broad, but also very narrow, because we're interested in a lot of touch points within the life sciences universe, whether that's universities, whether that's sort of little, you know, biotech companies operating out of people's garages all the way up to huge pharma organisations. This means we're talking to a really broad range of scientists, but obviously at the same time it's a relatively small, restricted field. So I would say the number one challenge that we face when our addressable universe is so small is getting our segmentation right and minimising wastage. I mean, I'm sure this is stuff that we'll get on to, but this is one of the reasons that, for example, we make so much use of platforms like LinkedIn platforms with robust targeting functionalities for, you know, these really narrow segments, because we find that if you use more traditional targeting methodologies, you can easily hit, you know, 10 million reach overnight and realise that a lot of that must necessarily be wastage because of the size of the universe that we're addressing. Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [03:50 - 03:59]
You mentioned LinkedIn, right? How important is LinkedIn in your your strategy to outreach and and raise awareness?

James Palmer - [03:59 - 05:11]
Yeah, it's relatively central. It has been historically. We are trying to diversify the media mix and make it a little bit less essential, for reasons that will probably become apparent when we get to talking about seasonality. But I do find with LinkedIn that it's sort of the perfect fit for what we want to do in terms of the amount of employment information people very proactively share about themselves. I quite like it as an ad platform. It feels very transactional, you know, not to get into the sort of ethics of advertising, but I think it's interesting that there's a clear transaction taking place between users giving this information, because specifically, it helps LinkedIn function as a recruitment tool for surfacing their profiles. But then in exchange, it gives us an absolute wealth of data to form segmentation from like no other or very few other platforms can. We say, can we go as granular as, you know, we want people with these job titles and this amount of experience in these industries and these geolocations. So it's extremely powerful in that regard. But obviously, being that it's auction based and being that they can charge an absolute premium for this kind of inventory because they're basically the only ones with this kind of robust targeting, it means that you do you can potentially end up paying an awful lot for it.

Luke Rose-Smith - [05:11 - 05:53]
Just just to echo what James was saying there, I think the the tricky thing is finding that balance, because I read somewhere earlier on today that only 50% of the LinkedIn audience is active. So yes, it's amazing for audiences. And we can we can really be narrow with our targeting, but there needs to be a balance of making sure that we're reaching the right people and also casting on a bit further so that we can touch them multiple times and not just LinkedIn, because they might not even open the LinkedIn app for a couple of weeks at a time. So I think that's the that's the tricky bit with kind of B2B marketing is trying to find platforms that have good audiences while not having lots of wastage.

Tom Gatten - [05:53 - 06:11]
So you could in theory, you could probably find who is active and then upload just them to just their email addresses to LinkedIn and just target them. But then I suppose it wouldn't really necessarily matter, because the people that are not, not active in theory won't get impressions in theory, shouldn't be paying for those people.

Charles Oben - [06:11 - 06:52]
Does anyone ever find that perhaps the LinkedIn targeting is too robust? So what I mean by that, to say alright I think is in the life sciences or any industry. Right. And you are able to become very, very bad in there. Then you end up with, let's say, an ad set of 10,000 or 50,000, because that's so small when you try and throw in marketing on that and then you track it down, and unless a 10% response rate and then you have to go through the funnel. What ends up actually being, let's say, an engaged audience, if you have such a such a niche, targeted place, has that ever happened to get negative results, as in it's too targeted?

James Palmer - [06:52 - 07:43]
That's a really interesting one, actually. I think sometimes you can almost leverage over targeting with LinkedIn because of its utility for, for example, work like, you know, if pull together a segment from, you know, job titles and industries and things like that. And it shook out to, yeah, you know, less than ten, 20,000, I'd probably be quite concerned about that segment. And, you know, the resource required to actually to run it versus the likely return. But if that, if those 10,000 people are generated by, for example, uploading a list of key accounts and matching those to people with specific roles at those accounts, um, then I find that that can potentially be quite beneficial, because while you're only potentially get a few contacts from that, you might only get a few bites on the hook. The potential value if they convert is enormous. So I think it really depends on on what kind of framework you're using for the LinkedIn work.

Tom Gatten - [07:43 - 08:47]
I think I think sometimes the the audience that engages on LinkedIn is not the same as the audience that is going to buy from you. So what I mean is you could like there are certain sorts of characteristics that mean someone's more likely to click on an ad and. In the consumer world. We have this investor called Hal Varian in one of the companies founded some time ago. He was Google's chief economist, and he invented the ad auction system. And he always had this anecdote that there was a strong correlation between low academic achievement and likelihood to click on an ad, which is obviously quite a dangerous thing for Google to be saying. But but anyway, I'm sure the same thing is not true in B2B world, but there will be some characteristics that mean someone's more likely to click on an ad, and that does not necessarily mean it's not always exactly the same as them being likely to buy. I know it sounds weird, but what? To James's point, you might be really happy with a high frequency, like a high number of impressions against each unique person within a really well targeted audience, even if they don't click because they might convert through other means. I suppose that's what you mean, James. Yeah, absolutely.

James Palmer - [08:47 - 09:26]
I mean, within reason, I think pushing for frequency is valuable for the segments that we work with. I also think it's just kind of a universal truth across platforms, at least for a scientists audience, that the people who you advertise to are not necessarily the same people who are making the purchase obviously create some challenges around attribution, but usually, you know, a bench level scientist will see an ad and then they will, you know, become convinced by whatever process to purchase from an organization, and then they will take that to their, you know, director of studies, their procurement person. So doing that kind of direct chain of attribution from purchase back to AD is virtually impossible. It's very stochastic. But yeah, absolutely. I um, yeah, I do, I do see the issue.

Luke Rose-Smith - [09:26 - 09:49]
I don't necessarily think that a small audience is is is really a negative thing. All it means is that is you have to update your content more regularly to kind of combat that frequency level, which can be a good thing, because it means that you're kind of refreshing your content regularly because you need to, rather than just kind of pushing out the same ad for 2 or 3 months at a time. It kind of forces you to. Also.

Tom Gatten - [09:49 - 09:58]
It's also super easy now to create almost unlimited variations of your ads with like ChatGPT. So in theory, there should be no excuse for hitting the frequency cap.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [09:58 - 10:14]
That's right. And I'm interested to hear what's your opinion about LinkedIn targeting accounts or targeting people? Which one do you think is more effective LinkedIn targeting accounts or people?

Luke Rose-Smith - [10:14 - 11:03]
I think it depends on your objectives, really like James mentioned here about the buying committee. So there's so especially in kind of in in the GRC world and a lot of B2B markets, the buying committee is so large. So it's not just the chief information security officer that's going to be making that purchase or doing the research. There might be legal counsels that, you know, or there might be a chief financial officer that needs to have an input or a procurement. So I think from an ABM perspective, it is always worth going for the account because you can hit a lot much more touch points. Whereas if you do contact, you're limiting yourself a little bit in terms of the exposure your brand gets. But but yeah, it ultimately depends on what your objectives are.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [11:03 - 11:16]
My question was more related with the with the effectiveness of of LinkedIn filters. When you filter at an account level, is it enough to target industries or growth of industry, those kind of filters?

Tom Gatten - [11:16 - 11:23]
Or there's way more detail on like James was saying, skills of individual people, their experiences. It's like so many.

James Palmer - [11:23 - 11:47]
Now is, is ridiculous. I mean, like on Facebook, you have a little bit of information on people's interests, which is mostly culled from the pages that they've liked, whereas with LinkedIn, because, again, it's a recruitment tool, people share a huge amount of detail on their sort of professional skill. You can literally you can. And together so many different criteria like their skills, their fields of study, you know, obviously industry, job title, job seniority, years of experience.

Tom Gatten - [11:47 - 11:56]
They're not going to share like an interest in amino acids on Facebook or like on LinkedIn. They might because they want to be recruited. They want to be hired for.

James Palmer - [11:56 - 12:04]
Yeah, particularly if it's one of their marketable skills. If they're like, oh, you know, I do love flow cytometry. You know, you're not going to say that on Instagram. But yeah.

Tom Gatten - [12:04 - 12:07]
Well, you know, it's probably somebody.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [12:07 - 12:20]
Yeah. And what about the other platforms for for for a B2B purpose? Um, what's your, your experience targeting accounts or people? In your digital campaigns.

Luke Rose-Smith - [12:20 - 13:00]
I think Facebook are trying to to kind of scale that B2B space. They've recently introduced some targeting around size of companies and also kind of decision makers. But ultimately it comes down to user generated information like LinkedIn has all that information. But how often do you see someone that's put their job title on on Facebook? So it is hard. And, you know, maybe that's where we then leverage lookalike audiences. I think, you know, meta algorithm is is a lot more powerful than LinkedIn in terms of matching those lookalike audiences. So that's really where we can leverage that a lot more.

Tom Gatten - [13:00 - 13:07]
Yeah. But but as you say, they're going to be doing it on consumer variables like whether they like Lady Gaga and where have they been on holiday. And.

James Palmer - [13:07 - 13:08]
And we all like Lady.

Luke Rose-Smith - [13:08 - 13:09]
Gaga, so that's a.

James Palmer - [13:09 - 13:09]
Large no.

Tom Gatten - [13:09 - 13:13]
So that's a useless metric. Yeah.

James Palmer - [13:13 - 14:08]
I mean, since they have such a huge mountain of data, I guess they can just sort of stir that to get, you know. Yeah. Extremely strong correlations out of, you know, what would appear on the surface level to be quite weak associations. Um, I've never really tried Facebook as an account based marketing tool. I. Yeah, I think that'd be that'd be an interesting one. I have used Facebook for B2B in the past though. It was for it was at a previous organization and it was for it was targeting quite broad interest products, things like commercial waste management that like basically any business would need. Which I found was quite efficient. You could optimize down the cpls quite well there because it was so broad, whereas with life science it just comes back to the wastage problem for me on on Facebook. It's okay for like, you know, brand launch, things like that when you're buying lots of impressions for not very much money. And the key goal is engagement and a bit of wastage is okay. But for actual like anything around acquisition or driving actions like hesitant at least.

Tom Gatten - [14:08 - 14:09]
How about how about you Charles?

Tom Gatten - [14:09 - 14:55]
You must have the problem of leakage from the consumer world because the brand is so strong. If you put up an ad with a TalkTalk logo, you're going to get a lot of clicks. But. There must be, like James is saying, quite a lot. I mean, it's even worse than James because no one's necessarily going to click on an ad about antibodies unless they are in the know. But they might. I mean, we have a client like just eat for business. They have a terrible problem because if they put a picture of a burger up and they say, do you want food in your office, they get like a billion leads and none of them are any good because they need people that are going to spend at least 500 meals a week. And so almost all of them get rejected unless they're like, really? But you must have that problem in TalkTalk, I would guess. Charles Oben - [14:55 - 15:54]
Yeah, you're right. There is a lot of overlap between, let's say, the interest that we get. If you've got advertising on Facebook, a lot of people, let's say, might engage with material thinking that they're engaging with TalkTalk as opposed to the distinctive TalkTalk business. So that does work negatively in some aspects. But it's also let's say there's the positive leakage, you know, because of the TalkTalk brand being quite well known as a whole. We do benefit from that as well, I think. So what we try and do as much as possible, I think, like other people mentioned on the call, is trying to be as grandberry targeting as we can. So I'm very much a fan of custom audience uploads, you know, working with our CRM team to try and make sure that we're targeting the right people for the objective that we are trying to get. And I find that is a probably that's a more helpful than perhaps a audience built from Facebook targeting, but depending on what you're trying to do.

Tom Gatten - [15:54 - 15:54]
Tom Gatten - [15:54 - 15:59]
Just override it, can't you? And say. I know the people here are their email addresses or whatever.

Charles Oben - [15:59 - 16:37]
Exactly. Yeah. So you just focus specifically on a set audience for them. But let's say we've got a product. So FTP so FTP is only let's say eligible to people that can actually have FTP within their area. So sorry for that full fibre. It's a full fibre product. So you wouldn't want to be targeting people that say that aren't full fibre like compatible. So when we do the targeting for that, we make sure that on Facebook our campaigns are only targeted at full fibre enabled people based on the audience that we upload, as opposed to anyone that could perhaps fall into a category within a certain area.

Luke Rose-Smith - [16:37 - 16:54]
I'm interested with that tactic. How granular are your campaigns? Do you have like campaigns for a certain like location that has full fiber? Like it must be really segmented to get that granularity?

Charles Oben - [16:54 - 17:42]
Yeah. So it depends on the product. So for full fibre yes, we have what I'd say full postcode targeting. So looking at say what is the best areas to target the FttP footprint within the UK working team. Basically you just factor out any postcode that is not compatible or any postcode. That said, it doesn't have that say the level of audience within that sector that we want to target. So we're going to move that out. I'm actually helped us improve our results a lot more. But then it may be different for, let's say, with a different product. So what would be known as dedicated leased lines because that is a countrywide availability. So you wouldn't need to do that for postcode targeting because anyone within the UK could get that. So it depends on what product we are trying to advertise for.

Luke Rose-Smith - [17:42 - 17:45]
Well, it sounds like a lot of work.

Charles Oben - [17:45 - 17:52]
Yeah, I think it's always worth targeting, and trying to get better results is just the bane of our existence. I think everyone can share that.

Tom Gatten - [17:52 - 17:55]
But also you have the.

Tom Gatten - [17:55 - 18:06]
You have the potential of disappointing someone, I guess, who calls in wanting the full fibre product. And then you have to explain to them that we can't, you know, unfortunately, your street is not connected yet and that could be disappointing to them.

Tom Gatten - [18:06 - 18:09]
So I guess that's why it's important.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [18:09 - 18:29]
And, Charles, we also talk about I'm moving a little bit the conversation towards your challenges because we you talk about finding the balance between long term brand building and short term campaigns, maybe like the ones that you you have described. How do you how do you balance that?

Charles Oben - [18:29 - 20:05]
With difficulty, I would say, because it's more the case of. Managing the internal stakeholders because, you know, we work collaboratively with our sales department, but there's always that constant challenge of understanding their pressures from the top. And people want immediate sales results. So you want to be doing activity that drives immediate results. But then top of the funnel activity, you know, where there's brand building, where it doesn't drive immediate results, but it builds a pipeline that you'd need to drive results down the line. So it's a constant like battle of a tug of war. With what activity can you do to drive immediate results, and what activity can you do to make sure that in six months time, you still have an engaged audience to capitalize on on results, then especially some of our products like dedicated lease line, where the actual sales journey is several months. So you have to make sure that you do build that pipeline in advance, or four month, five months, everything is going to dry up. So that's the kind of internal stakeholder challenge. And personally, I'm very much a fan of the approach from a Les Binet who I think is head of effectiveness for Adam and Eve, and authour of "The long and short of it". So having, you know, long term brand building that is always, let's say, always on for the awareness approach. You have to build that in the background and then having regular short bursts of sales driven activity. So that's the best practice that I would say is the holy grail of what you would, what you would do to get the best results. But then it may not actually work in reality. An example I always love to come to. I think it's John Lewis. Charles Oben - [20:05 - 20:26]
The John Lewis I think are well known for their Christmas advertising algorithms come to, you know, everyone wants to go to buy John Lewis and then they rake in on the sales. But obviously that doesn't just happen in November or December. You know, they've been building that that brand for a very, very long time. And they capitalize that on certain periods. I think, you know, that's the kind of balance that you're always trying to find.

Tom Gatten - [20:26 - 20:27]
We had we had an.

Tom Gatten - [20:27 - 21:15]
Interesting episode a couple of months ago about always on versus project based. We had this guy from YouGov who said, everyone thinks that YouGov is part of the government. And so every time we do ads just washes over their heads because they're like, oh, that's not a business. That's like the government. And so what they had to do is like, concentrate all their resources in like a six week period, all their marketing budget over short, sharp bursts where they could saturate the people they wanted to target to change their opinion, which was probably pretty set about what YouGov was. We had Ericsson as well, which is the same thing was like, everyone thinks we're 90 phones, and so we have to try and convince them that we are the future of 5G. And so we have to, like, completely saturate them, but over a really short period of time, because if we just do it, generally it never gets above the threshold of changing their minds. Tom Gatten - [21:15 - 21:18]
We also took we also.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [21:18 - 21:29]
Took about the problems with attribution using always on strategies. I don't know what's your your take on that Charles or. Wherever else in the panel.

Tom Gatten - [21:29 - 21:32]
Very, very, very difficult.

Charles Oben - [21:32 - 22:32]
So obviously the Holy grail for attribution. If you have econometric modelling, but not everyone has, you know, the detail of that. If you try and do, let's say if you isolate what is a variable that is changed within a six month period. So you know, okay, cool. We have this activity live for six months. And this happened. We didn't have it live for six months. But then we mentioned let's say if you've got the display or any top line activity live right. And it doesn't lead to direct sales in the reporting one, the business may not be that keen on having it live because he's not getting the results that they say inverted commas. But then secondly, we know that marketing channels have a interrelated relationship. So you may have displayed activity live which is then helping to drive sales or vice versa. You may have lives that are helping to convert somewhere else. So you have to always try and look at not just the channels in isolation. If you want to do attribution, you know how are the channels or the activity, how they're correlating to to performance across each other within the same time frame?

Tom Gatten - [22:32 - 22:35]
Mhm. Yeah.

Luke Rose-Smith - [22:35 - 24:08]
I think attribution is probably every marketer's nightmare because it is just so hard especially you know, in the last couple of years we've, you know Google and and Apple revising cookies and changing cookie policies. I think it just made everything so much harder to attribute. And there's only so much that, you know, HubSpot or a CRM can do. Um, so it is tricky to attribute which channel is played it apart in, in a certainly, especially when we're talking about it's pretty easy for speed to see because what happens usually is someone sees an ad, clicks on it and buy something, whereas B2B, because the sales cycles are so long, it's so hard to kind of look at what touchpoints played a part here, what touchpoint is played on there. So I think, I think moving forward, attribution is going to be quite a key thing for us B2B marketers to, um, to nail, really, because, you know, I think for especially my experiences, paid media strategies have kind of taken a lot more of a influence in a business as a whole. So, you know, a couple of years ago, I think we would just run some campaigns, get some leads in, and that would be it. Whereas now I think we're taking a lot more influence in reporting to the board, having a bit of a say on what happens in the next six months, you know, a year in terms of content creation, in terms of our targeting, our, you know, strategies from from sales and marketing. So, you know, I definitely think that's kind of the next six months to a year is key.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [24:08 - 24:37]
Yeah. In that episode we had someone saying regarding the LinkedIn strategy, I totally moved out of of always on as a paid strategy on LinkedIn, and I and I and he left all the organic side as an always on strategy and all the paid strategy just campaign focused, um, because of attribution, because of how hard it was with. And he was only talking about one platform.

Tom Gatten - [24:37 - 24:38]
Isn't it like.

Tom Gatten - [24:38 - 25:33]
To be forced to do things in short, sharp bursts so that you can? I mean, that's just rubbish. That's like it's changing because what you you know, that's not how you actually want to be talking to people necessarily, just to do it just so you can prove it. That's there is like you can if instead you start with a list of companies and you know exactly the companies who are going after, and then you upload that to LinkedIn and then you filter down by the job titles or whatever. James then you can see who actually buys. And then in theory you can don't need to rely on clicks on LinkedIn, which as we've said, you often don't result in sales or sometimes the people that are getting in, getting impressions like that's really valuable, but they don't immediately buy. You can look at a correlation between how many impressions this account got and how likely they were to become a customer from any source. I've seen that really very be very persuasive to a CFO when you because you can show a confidence and a degree of confidence level and whatever.

James Palmer - [25:33 - 26:43]
Yeah, that kind of hybrid, slightly stochastic attribution model can be can be very valuable. And it definitely does, you know, enable a little bit more mobility in running. Always on I feel like also with the sort of smart hybrid attribution, it's something that's going to potentially be quite a good application for tools moving forwards. I mean, I know that this is already something that's in the pipeline, but yeah, I feel like with, um, for example, the fact that now, you know, with the cookie apocalypse taking place, we can often see that something like 50% of sessions get lost before they even get recorded into a platform like Google Analytics. You know, very often, because if they're first time visitors coming through paid sources, often they haven't sort of opted in to receive cookies by the time that session would have been recorded. So there's a huge amount of drop off there. But being able to extrapolate broader trends from that very incomplete dataset, I feel like is probably quite a good, um, application for this technology that's possibly going to become much more front and center in years to come, though, you know, really, as people have been talking about this since about 2017, 2018, and yet to see a really sort of robust model yet. But we'll be interested to see where it goes.

Tom Gatten - [26:43 - 26:44]
All right.

Joaquin Dominguez (host) - [26:44 - 26:54]
Luke you mentioned challenges in nurturing high value leads. What strategies have you found effective in this area?

Luke Rose-Smith - [26:54 - 27:43]
Yeah, I think I think we've already touched a little bit on this in terms of, um. From Charles and James's kind of struggles and challenges. So I think the challenge that we have is, um, our sales cycles so long, it could be six months to a year. So from that first touch point six months ago, how do we then keep them top of the mind? How do we then basically nurture them through the funnel? What content do we create? Um, and we've got quite a small team here in terms of marketing and sales. So it's quite easy for us to be able to engage sales and sales in what we're doing in the messaging we do. But I think for larger organisations it's a lot harder to have that alignment. Luke Rose-Smith - [27:43 - 28:42]
So I think it's really key trying to make sure that you have the same messaging, both that marketing are pushing out and also the Sdrs are using. But yeah, that is the biggest challenge for us is just making sure that we're keeping our brand top of the mind and and trying to focus on their point pain points and making sure that we are top of the mind that when that, that, that six months or eight months come, come around, that we're part of the decision process and we're considered because six months is a long time, you know, one click on Google Ads, six months time we've forgotten about. Whereas it's quite key to make sure that we leverage those those multi-channel strategies. So we leverage, you know, meta, LinkedIn, programmatic, even software review sites such as Capterra and G2. We need to make sure we've got a presence on them, because if someone comes around to the decision making and they see a competitor's ad and they click on that and they see their offering and that is different to us, then they're probably going to end up going with them and having a conversation rather than us. And we want to make sure that we're part of that conversation.

Tom Gatten - [28:42 - 28:44]
We're chatting to a lady.

Tom Gatten - [28:44 - 29:41]
From a video management company the other day, Monday, about MNTN. Mount Mountain MNTN. Which is like connected TV, and she was doing retargeting on connected TVs using MNTN, which is I think is a company owned by Ryan Reynolds, like Deadpool actor, which is completely weird. Anyway, you can, you can a owner of Wrexham Football Club, I believe someone said to me as well, yeah, um, but yeah, so he owns we've invested in this company. He does all the marketing for it, but in theory, yeah, it's basically an ad platform. But you can upload lists of people and then you can retarget them using their connected TVs, and you can put various different criteria that she was using to correlate with. Obviously it's a bit like the thing of, you know, targeting whether they're going to buy antibodies based on whether they like Lady Gaga, like you do have to say, they have to be in these areas. And this is a bit silly, but apparently she was saying it was working for her.

Speaker G - [29:41 - 29:41]
Luke Rose-Smith - [29:41 - 30:45]
Programmatic is becoming a lot more powerful now. Like we use a platform called Stack Adapt as a DSP and they ingest B2B intent audiences. So like Bombora, that can be a game changer. You know, usually if you're using Google Display Network, you're targeting in-market and affinity, and there's a lot of placements that are probably a load of rubbish. There's a lot of work to try and keep them relevant and make sure there's no wastage, whereas, you know, stack it up to have and this is not a sales pitch for stack adopt. I'm not on commission. So they have a really refined list of placements, like really good ones like Forbes, Financial Times and their audiences can be really tight in terms of bombora audiences. You know, you can you can use an audience from someone that's downloaded a certain type of software before. So you know, you're talking about wastage. We've talked about quite a lot today already, but we can there are emerging ad platforms that do try and remove that wastage and are better for B2B.

Tom Gatten - [30:45 - 30:47]
What about the cost? What about the cost.

Tom Gatten - [30:47 - 30:53]
Of that versus the cost of LinkedIn? The great attraction to that should be that it's way, way cheaper, right? Is it.

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