B2B is Luxury Marketing (Part 1/3)

Can B2B brands take cues from the luxury industry in building long-term relationships with their customers? This insightful discussion features experts from both luxury marketing and B2B marketing fields, delving into the surprising similarities between their domains.

During this conversation, leaders will cover topics such as using data to truly understand buyers, building emotional connections with your brand beyond just transactions, and balancing short-term metrics with long-term brand building. You'll also get to hear about strategies for identifying and engaging with elite audiences over extended sales cycles, consistent customer experiences, personalized nurture campaigns, and the latest technologies like generative AI.

Whether you're selling luxury yachts or high-end software systems, there are valuable lessons to be learned about developing relationships and trust that lead to customer loyalty. Tune in for an intriguing cross-industry conversation packed with actionable insights.

Guests

Shelagh McManus, Senior Director, Marketing - International at Brightcove

Claire Pitman-Massie, VP of Marketing and Demand Generation at ForgeRock

Ben Bulpett, Senior Director Global Field and Partner Marketing at Algolia

Chris Willman, Marketing Director at Commvault

Charles Stephenson, Insurance Partner at Burgess

Chris Davies, EMEA Growth Director at Wunderman Thompson

Alex Blakeway, Managing Partner at Venezia Capital

Today's podcast, we are going to be exploring the connections between luxury marketing and B2B marketing. Um, over the course of this year, we have discussed a number of times on the podcast what some potential connections might be. Luxury or luxury marketers face the challenge of niche audiences. They can waste a lot of money, uh, advertising to people speaking with people that will never have the means to buy long sales cycles. Multiple decision makers. Over the last five years, there's been quite a lot of demographic change in who are the decision makers in luxury, um, particularly the move towards more women in positions of of making decisions on major luxury purchases. Um, also potentially harder to identify wealth and harder to engage with, uh, wealthy people, or at least a necessary change from how people used to engage with, uh, wealthy decision makers. In general, luxury marketing has found the space just generally congested and competitive, because lots and lots of people are chasing that spend, of course, and also a feeling perhaps that in some areas of luxury marketing there is a need to transition to from a slightly more old fashioned way of marketing to a modern way of marketing. And lots of these things. Lots of these challenges are also faced by B2B, B2B marketers. So today we are joined by some fabulous guests to explore this topic. We have Claire Pitman Massey, who's director of Field and Channel Marketing at Forgerock. Um, 20 years working with startups to tech giants, fast growth, a lot of cyber experience. Um, previous to Forgerock working for Talas Cyber Security division, you've been the director of an agency. Claire, and now you're a strategic leader, strategic leader at Forgerock. And I would call you a syncretic thinker, able to pull together multiple strands of, of thought from different industries. In fact, without you, this this episode would not be happening at all. It was, uh, it was your influence that strongly suggested that we pull this together. So, Claire, we all have, uh, something to thank you for. We have Sheila. Sheila McManus, senior director of international marketing at Brightcove, an expert in modern B2B marketing. Um, you have a similarly rich, career spanning start ups to major world spanning enterprises in tech leadership. Uh, you've led marketing at Symantec, HP, Iris. Sheila is obsessed with the customer and a champion of customer experiences and particularly analytical, um, and a strategic, very senior strategic perspective. Alex. Lovely to have you here. Managing partner of Venezia Capital. Alex, you scale tech companies. That's what you do. You've led the commercial team at access Group and you made it. I'm sure it was mostly your influence. The largest software company in the UK whilst you were there. Um, serious depth in M&A from from, uh, from access Group and elsewhere. Very serious change management at the highest level. Uh, experience. You've built many teams and along with your experience in B2B, you've also own a yacht in the Mediterranean.

Starting my own luxury, uh, line. So, uh, be interesting to really hear some of the, the views. And I've got the different side, the, um, the some lucky enough to, to spend some money on some of those, uh, nice items. But now somebody who's actually trying to sell a service to high net worth individuals. So be interesting to to to hear the conversation today.

Uh, we have been lovely to have you here. Ben is senior director of global field marketing partner and account based marketing Algolia. Um, you have three decades of experience in cybersecurity and enterprise software. Sailpoint. And I think you worked in customer success at Oracle, um, earlier on in your career. And I think, yeah, obviously an expert now in search and the human interface between technology and and humans. Okay. Uh, representing B2B marketing, uh, we have Charles Stevenson, um, who's the partner, uh, looking after insurance business of Burgess, which is the highest end yacht company in the world, um, which you have transformed that that practice, I think, from, uh, cozy to world leading, I would say, and looking after bespoke insurance, uh, solutions for really I mean, we're going to learn more about this, I'm sure. But the superest of super yachts before that you were at Deloitte and I think Debrett's Prestige, which of course is in the UK, a very major name in luxury.

I think, like many people, insurance, there's a thread that leads its way between Debrett's, Deloitte, but there's always an accident that gets into insurance. But, uh, been here ten years now and very happy to join this call.

Thank you, Charles. And we have Chris. Chris, it's lovely to have you here. Um, again, a cornerstone of of this podcast and this series of recordings we're doing. Um, and you and, uh, Joaquin and I have, um, you know, thought carefully on how to weave this, weave this together. EMEA growth director for Wunderman Thompson. He leads lead growth across EMEA. Uh, I think uh, Chris has worked with Emirates, Cartier, Macallan whisky and a range of other luxury brands. Um at WPP and plus B2B, I think, uh, Wunderman Thompson growing in influence in the B2B space and able to bring lots of the learnings from luxury across to B2B as well. So yes. So let's start. So we're going to start with segment one which is all about building a brand relationships building relationships building trust. So let's talk about what makes brands in B2B and in luxury. Originality. Creativity. Influence. Um. Why don't we start, Chris, with you? Perhaps I can ask you. What are there? Are there? Please tell us. There are some connections between the luxury marketing world and the B2B world. And let's think about those things.

Thanks for. Thanks for coming to me first. I think it's always good to to get your opinion in before someone else says it. So, um, I appreciate the opportunity, but, um, yeah. And I think the reason why the whole series was interesting for me is because we've just relaunched our B2B proposition, and we talk a lot about the learnings of B2B brands can get from luxury. So it's been something that's been on our minds for a while. And I think on your question about trust and relationships, that that is really the the kernel of the issue. Um, and I think we always talk about kind of when it comes to customer experiences, the, the brand makes the promise and the experience delivers on that promise. And I think that's a nice parallel between luxury and, and B2B as well. Um, you need every experience and customer touchpoint to be living up to the expectation that's set through what you're saying to people. So that delivery element is is vital and kind of carrying on that thread. The challenge is in both of those sectors are the same as well, because they're both sectors where you have lots of moving parts, where you have sales teams, marketing teams and service teams, who in B2B in luxury more than most other mass B2C sectors. You're getting lots and lots of customer data. And the reliance on the kind of data foundations and experience strategy, end to end experience strategy is so important in both B2B and luxury that if it's not nailed down, you don't really stand a chance of delivering on any of your brand promises. So that's our kind of like.

And is that is that really? I mean, I think possibly you could argue for some of those things. The same applies for the kind of the other in this conversation, which I suppose is lower end consumer marketing. What's the actual what's the difference between the the experiences that B2B and luxury needs to provide that is separate, that is different from the sort of experiences that, I don't know, Netflix or something or.

Yeah, I mean, I think boiled down to the most basic level, I think it just comes down to the length of the sales cycle. And just naturally, the longer the sales cycle, the more customer touchpoints you have and the more data you collect. Um, and the more opportunity there is for things like progressive profiling and, um, putting together zero first, second, third party data. Um, and then how you align your troops, so to speak, so that your salespeople are armed with that marketing Intel. The service people are armed with that marketing Intel. I think you mentioned Cartier at the start of the call. That was key to the work that we we did for Cartier was looking at how we can put the kind of the data that's being collected through marketing channels into the hands of their client representatives, their salespeople in store. So you get that really personalized experience. And I think that is a really key learning and something that's that B2B can definitely, um, take from luxury. Well, I think I think that's a really interesting section there of something we should definitely talk about today is developing trust over time, developing a brand through a long sales cycle or, uh, what we I don't know whether, uh, this is called this in the B2C world, but in B2B world we call it nurturing the idea that you can, as you say, gather information over a long period of time. Compliantly, of course, gather data on individuals and their engagement with you and an account's engagement with you. Yeah. I think that's a really interesting point because I think, um, you know, there's a lot of talk in every category in the B2C world at the moment about the death of the traditional funnel and how people make purchase decisions when they're they're not that involved a lot quicker. And they don't need necessarily the level of trust. I think, um, in the B2B and luxury worlds, they'll I don't think that'll ever go away. I don't think you'll ever get someone making a decision on a, on a £5,000 handbag or a £500,000 IT system without any level of trust or knowledge of the brand. So there's there's definitely a lot more reliance on the traditional, on the traditional kind of marketing funnel awareness, interest, desire and whatever you want to whichever acronym you want to use. And I think in a lot of B2C categories, it's kind of diminished a little bit with with how easy it is to buy through social or digital these days.

And Charles, you're not a marketer as such, of course. Um, but I am. I'm really interested to hear about your experience at.

A lot of echoes from what Chris says about how the brand sets the platform, but expectations need to be met along the way. And, you know, we started 47 years ago as a company for Nigel Burgess to solo sailor and now 47 years ago. 47 years later. Um, we we have clients who've been with us the entire time, or most of the time. Um, but very much clients in the past ten, 20 years and its ability to always manage the expectations and one blip could lose it. And so it's honestly trying to keep the, um, delivery of the service constant. And as a company, we try and move, you know, we we sell yachts, we manage yachts, um, insure of course, and do what's called cruise service, international HR department and, and sometimes I pick up the business off the smallest email. But of course, I'm going off the back of everyone's work elsewhere. And I think, as Chris says, the long sales cycles we work to, it can envelop a huge amount of trust in us as a company, which allows big sales to happen relatively easily for me. But of course, I look down at the work that others have done going back years as they've nurtured these clients. Um, so I think, yeah, it echoes what Chris has mentioned, um, just now.

Yeah. The death of the because in B2B, until recently, a lot of the marketing budget was spent on lead generation, and we were just speaking with someone this morning about how they had completely shifted to a very different approach to nurturing relationships over a much longer time with a full account, which sounds like what you're saying, Charles, you know, lead generation actually becomes trivial once you've invested that amount of, you know, the trigger that actually generates the sale.

And that's also one of the things our average sale takes about 22 months to go from being on the market to being sold. And so again, it's, um, the trigger that makes the owner, because of course, we sell other people's yachts. We don't sell our own itinerary, um, inventory. And so we have to get the owner to the point where they are willing to sell at that price. Um, so, yeah, it's very hard to find the trigger that creates a sale today, this quarter, next quarter. So it's a constant laying down of servicing and standards that created happen when in due course it does happen. Well, I think we can in the B2B world. We can certainly relate to looking for trigger points, right?

Yeah. I think if I can jump in, Tom, this is just so interesting. You know, my life has been technology, as I'm sure Sheila and Ben would, would kind of, um, sort of say the same. And this whole shift, you know, and this is what's interesting to me and why, when we talked about setting up this podcast, was I wanted to learn those little nuggets. And already I've got two pages. So thank you guys. That's number one stealing all your best ideas. But but it's so true. If you look at the certainly in the organizations that we sell into the enterprises and the large enterprises, the big banks, they're global brands, you know, that longevity of that sales cycle and the complexity of not just, you know, their existing technology infrastructure, but their their buying cycles and their buying journeys is so that building of trust is so key. And if I think about what Forgerock is going through at the minute, and I'd really love to hear the, the, the team's opinion on this is in our world, um, acquisition M&A is a daily occurrence. We're just currently going through, um, an integration with Ping Identity, who was up until a couple of months ago our number one competitor. Now we're kind of coming together and it's one plus one equals three, and it's better together. And but I'd love to hear the opinion from the guys like Chris and Charles on. How do you see that and those real long sales cycles and those long nurturing processes to the client base and to your prospects?

Talking about competition, it is remarkable again how a client will. You know, we do have strong competitors, and yet they do seem to have loyalty when they're first fed in. So I think probably from a, um, um, it's how that initial introduction is made. There are only about 2500 billionaires in the world, and that's probably where most of our, um, attention is, because the average sale of our yachts is about is over 20 million. And then you have the annual upkeep of them. So so really, it's over a very small pool of people. And as we're talking, I researched the Monaco Yacht Show, which is the largest yacht show specifically for us. Each year. You know, 30,000 people attend that show. Um, and there's no pretense that every billionaire turns up. And so it's how to get the initial leads, um, out of that group that will fall into your long terme sales cycle. Um, because it does seem to be quite good loyalty into a management house, into a brokerage house once you have been put in there.

So that's that's a very interesting and very relatable challenge. I think for us in B2B. Um, we work with a number of our clients like Trustpilot and Justeat fight. They have a B2C arm and they have incredibly powerful brands. Uh, and they have an incredibly attractive thing just eat its food, which people, uh, like almost as much as they like luxury yachts. Um, probably, you know, so they find it very, very easy to generate a lot of work in B2B world we call intent, but then find it extremely difficult to sift through that to identify businesses that are people, rather that have the means to actually make a decision, as in they're in the right situation, have the right budget at the right company.

Just to add to that, if you think about a couple of statistics that I've been talking to our sellers about is, you know, 69% of the buying journey now is done digitally across B2C or B2B. 80% of users now disable cookies when they get to a site. They don't want to be tracked. And you know, the buying group in the B2C, B2B world has now grown. They reckon to between 8 to 12 people are involved in that decision making process. So you have a transition for organisations who are looking to sell into B2B and into high end brands, that the the buying group is far more informed, far more, um, uh. Extended beyond just the traditional people that you want to talk to. The other thing that's, um, Gartner recognized that is that 80% of B2B to buying decisions are made outside of the boardroom, yet we still have this insatiable demand to talk to the C-suite. And that C-suite is typically empowering and being informed by these buying groups. And the challenge you have in that B2B world is trying to find those buying groups and maintain a level of dialogue and nurture with them through the longer sales cycle. And especially, you know, we have as an organization, the transition from some of the more transactional sales to that longer sale is a cultural shift for some of the salespeople who are struggling to make that leap because, similar to a luxury brand, B2B buyers need to be nurtured. They need to be respected. They need to be given information. It needs to. They need to feel that that your brand and your experience, as Chris said at the start, is representative of how they are in that sales process. And I think that's a challenge for some organizations. You know, we're going through that at the moment as as we transition to trying to break into that larger enterprise and that ultimately, you know, some of those big brands that are going to be far more diligent and far more patient in their buying process.

So let me try and unpick this challenge then. So Charles, you mentioned 30,000 people turning up to the Monaco Yacht Show. Um, Claire, we've been talking recently about, you know, specific tight named audiences that we want to go after and then, you know, working out how you then prioritise within that or potentially outside that. And then, uh, Ben, you've just mentioned buying groups. Charles, you also mentioned that when buying a yacht, it's not the same. You know, the equivalent of our C-suite would be the billionaire, him or herself saying, I want to buy a yacht, but then from then onwards, to actually purchase it might involve many, many people there. Side five people in their family office, multiple people within their family. So it seems really hard to know where to invest money. And yet, Charles, you did say that. You know, you have clearly been able to make the right decisions if you nurture the wrong people, I guess is where I'm going with this. And Ben, you talked about how difficult it is to actually identify who is the right person given everyone turns off their cookies and no one wants to be tracked and this sort of thing. So how? Well, Chris, Charles or Alex, like, how do you how have you found this challenge in the consumer luxury world? And then we can try and derive some learnings.

I'm sorry to always jump in first and please go somewhere more knowledgeable. That's the intention. Um, I think I must correct. I think the boat is bought by the core family, you know, husband and wife. Um, and we just had a boat rejected last night because it's the wrong shade of gray. They wanted a gray yacht rather than what they had. So it's still very, um. Yeah, focused at that, of course. Then we do the products, the yacht management, um, insurance, where we talk more to the owner's family, the family office and these families all have wealth managers and and at least five people below that to to talk to there. So it's a bit of a blend um on that.

I think my, um, my instant reply would be it would be brilliant basics around data. I think, um, we get a lot of briefs asking for a kind of replacement silver bullet almost to cookies. And it's not. It's not about that. It's it's about getting your own house in order in terms of your own CDP and Data Lake and, uh, and that unfortunately, there's no there's no shortcut to that. That's a case of a lot of rigor around CRM systems. Um, as I said at the start, with both B2B and luxury, you probably have separate systems for Clienteling and CRM and, uh, and marketing automation. So that just requires a lot of, um, a lot of architecture work. Um, and from that you can kind of progressively profile and obviously nothing is going to replace cookies to the same, um, efficiency. But um, there is um, there's, there's definitely more that I think all businesses can do in just terms of analyzing their own, um, their own kind of data hygiene, I guess before looking to bring in an expensive partner. I probably shouldn't be saying this as one of those expensive partners, but obviously there are, you know, there's lots of there's lots of tech tools out there that can help, um, profiling, using kind of additional first party data, um, bought data and that type of thing. But I think there's a there's a lot more work at a foundational level that that businesses should be doing.

And I found one of my roles was working at Oracle. Um, and we went through a terrible period where, uh, on the HR side, two things were always changing. One, the clients were so dynamic in the banking sector. Uh, what was a priority today? You kind of go forward a couple of months that changed. So it was identifying that the opportunity can be different. And also the competition we had. Workday came in, launched a brilliant product. And the old one that was Oracle and expensive. And that's where we saw the market shift. So I think the two bits we learned from that was one, the how dynamic clients can be, and they can change their mind very quickly. And two, if you're not looking over your shoulder, you'll find very quickly there'll be a better competitor offering you something slightly different and probably a better price. And they absolutely can can take sales from you.

Yeah, I think we can all sympathize, Charles, with even in B2B world it happens that you spend, you know, six months nurturing a buying group, and then the CEO decides that he's going to go with someone he's just met at a conference the day before. And all your all your hard work comes crashing down. There is some relationships there. But how do we how do we know who to nurture? You know, this is what I want to try and get to in. You know, Charles, you've got 30,000 people turning up to the to the yacht group. Presumably there is a kind of a base of people that you've known for a long time. But you have to.

I suppose, and I must. I know if my marketing team were on this, not me, they would talk less about yacht show is far more about the digital presence we do have. Right. Um, and so but but the anecdote is from, um, sort of the physical world. Um, we 22 years ago had a charter with, um, just a summer charter for about £20,000 and 20 years ago. That's a large amount of money. Um, but over 22 years, we grew the connection with family. Um, and, uh, last year they bought a boat for 200 million. And so when we talk about longevity of knowing a client. And so I think there's also got to be a bit of cautious about not being too brutal with your, um, client, uh, because on the first call, you have no idea where it will go. As a company, we have 260 employees, and we have some junior sales brokers who will be putting on a sale of 1.6 million, and they'll think that's their biggest sale they've ever had. Um, and we as a, you know, I work alongside them. We must give him the same attention. We give the top sales brokers because hopefully he will turn into that, uh, that, that big sales broker. So at every stage, these are big numbers. And who's for me to go to a man and say your boat is only worth a million? That's not very much. Of course, that's ridiculous. That man who owns that boat is very, very happy to do so. And so I think we can't be too brutal with our client, uh, shifting at the initial stage.

I think the problem is, Tom, you can't you can't go and ask somebody who are the right groups of people and should I be selling to you? You can't some sales be in a different way, but it has to be. So then you come back to can you use data? Can you use some of these other bits of technology to try and pick up on some of these buyer groups, and can that help us now start to shape? Where should we spend our time with, um on clients rather than, I said, the wasted sales cycles? If you look at the average sales team, when you look at where they're failing, a lot of the opportunity is they're just working on the wrong, wrong opportunities to start with talking to the wrong people. Uh, so, yes. So the question would be, how do you now use technology to try and hone in on that, that correct buying group?

Uh, Alex, I would totally agree. And I think, you know, this was something we talked again previously. Um, Tom, was that that I've heard it so many times, you know, 90 to 95, certainly in the tech world, 90 to 95% of your total addressable market or your targeted market will not be in market in any one period of time. So it's that identifying that 5%. And, you know, when you're sitting here, as we all are, sort of, um, remotely that it's working, you go, well, it is literally digital first because that's probably the cheapest and the easiest and the first kind of signals and the first kind of show. But then, as Ben said, everybody hides, everybody hides behind everything I do. Um, you know, and then it is maybe, as Charles said, you know, those very bespoke, um, industry led or, you know, events or, you know, that really tight knit where, you know, your audience is going to be. And I'll give you an example very quickly, was we did a we attended the World Aviation Festival in September. I wouldn't normally have touched that because it's everything from, you know, um, airline food suppliers right through to passenger, you know, ticketing, you know, that you wouldn't normally put identity technology in there, but actually it was one of the best events that we've ever done, um, in Forge Rock's history, because the captive audience was there. It was all about. And I'm going to look at Sheila and say, customer experience at that point. You know, it's all about that end to end journey. You know, um, that having buying a ticket, ensuring your flight, um, doing your car hire, doing your hotel and only identifying once. So for us, it was a really great experience. So, um, I think you're right. We've got to start somewhere, Alex. And I think, you know, digital is is probably where we can start in the first instance and then funnel it down.

I was gonna say my only comment would be to start the warm up process. What we could learn from a luxury market and what maybe Charles was. No, I follow, uh, big motor, a luxury motor yacht called Lune, and they've got a videographer on board, and they produce fantastic content. It's nothing like below decks or anything cheesy. It's just if you're interested in boats, it's like proper interesting and it's how can you. And that's what on the B2B world can we learn at Oracle? We failed Cisco, we failed access. We kind of failed as well. Whenever you look at where is some great content, that's really interesting because Lune is a charter, the boat is a big charter one. You go to the website, of course, you can then see it. And their way of trying to nurture is this really interesting content. And I think that's what some of the, the luxury brands do really well. When you look at the B2B side, could I say any of the access videos were interesting? Kind of. But there's a big push. Oh, let's go back to haven't we got a great feature and function and aren't we brilliant rather than looking at something. So I think it's the nurturing part. And then can you use technology that shows that from me viewing some content on the nurturing side, when do I then flip over into the the buying side? So when does my behavior start to change and what signals could we look at for that?

I'd like to pick up on some of what's been said there, if I may. We were talking about initially, that whole nurturing element of how we go to market. And I think one of the subtle differences. And, Alex, you touched on it briefly then as well, in your commentary, one of the subtle differences between luxury and B2B is in B2B, when we're talking about nurturing, if we're honest with ourselves, everything we do in marketing when we talk B2B is about driving for that sale. And therefore, even when we're talking about how are we targeting people, we're talking about who's going to buy this courtier to Charles comment about, you know, do I know who's going to buy this in this next three months? Not necessarily. But, you know, I need to nurture someone all the way along. And I think perhaps in B2B, one of the things I'm honing in more and more through this conversation is the terminology we use. We interpret differently. And I'm wondering whether B2B brands need to look much more at building that relationship with who they're trying to talk to, and building that ongoing conversation with those people, which then brings in that interesting content. And it's again, you know, we create the content we create because we are driving for that sale. We are honing them down that funnel. We are pushing them towards that transaction, when actually what we should be doing is building that relationship and providing something of value to them. That then builds that trust in us, builds that confidence in our brand that we then deliver upon. And through that, you will then find the right people to sell to. And I'm wondering how much B2B is therefore still too much about driving for that transaction, driving for that final sales, getting that sales over the line instead of accepting that that'll happen when it happens, actually is marketing more about building that relationship? And does that change what we're doing in marketing?

I think it does. I think, Sheila, I think I think sales, having spent 30 years in sales with the likes of Oracle and CA and other organizations, we were in control of the sale. The lead came over, it was controlled by sales. You speak to salespeople now their biggest worry is I hear it, you know, well, I got that lead. Well, it's not about who got the lead right. It's an all bound motion. Somehow that person or that organization is now in market. But actually marketing's time in the sales cycle is a lot, lot longer than it historically has been.

So a lot of salespeople are sort of. Oh, hang on here. What does that mean for me? And we're trying to educate them, especially with technologies and things like content syndication is a good example. Just because someone downloads a piece of white paper and information, something that is of value doesn't mean they're in market. But actually we're if you are compensating people to drive a lead to try and convert them, then the behavior that they will exhibit is trying to force them down a particular journey that that buyer doesn't, or that particular individual or company doesn't want to go. Whereas actually if you give something back for free, go all the way back to Chris's comment about living your brand. I've been saying to the guys, just go back to them and say, I've seen you have been interested in a yacht. I've seen you are interested in this. Here's a load of resources that you might find useful. Let me know if you need any information and you leave it at that. And actually you're finding buyers are saying you can't do that because I won't get my. And you say, well, that's I don't care whether you get your commission. That's the best thing to do to feed that that buyer and give them the ability to consume content and information far more easily. The other thing that we've just decided to do, we're going to engage all our content. We're not going to ask for any information. The only content we will ask for is stuff that we have to like Gartner or Forrester, but we are going to ungay all our content because people know what you're trying to do, and they'll give you full email. They'll try it and try it so many different ways. So let them have it. Make ourselves live the live the values of our brand, which is, yeah, we're easy to do business with. We want to engage. We want to help come and consume that. And I think that's one thing that, you know, some of the luxury brands, you know, it's that, yeah, whatever you want will help you on that journey. We'll obviously give you an experience. And I think that's more and more B2B and B2C. Yeah. The one thing I would like to just yeah, one thing I just wanted to add around the whole issue of technology, um, generative AI is a phenomenal piece of transformation that's going to happen in B2B and B2C. You know, I've seen some of the technology that our guys are developing where I don't even have to know who you are. But based upon the output from your search, I'll be able to deliver you personalized, relevant material immediately on the fly. So go back to what Alex was saying about content rather than saying, well, we've got this content, I'll build the content that's relevant for you. And the example that I've seen is someone says, I'm looking for a HD television with 4K. This generative AI platform will start to build and say, do you want me to build you a guide and a comparison around these? And I can show you which is the best, and I can give you these reviews and I can show you. And actually your interaction with them is not based on any PII data. It's purely originated from your interest based out of the search. And actually when we've demonstrated this as a as a prototype to, especially to some, uh. High luxury brands that we're talking to. They're talking about that really white glove experience for that user online and having that. So go back to sort of what, you know, Charles is saying, you know, I'm buying a £200 million yacht. I want a white glove experience. Well, actually, what you want to be able to do is give that white glove. But I'm not going to ask you for any personal, identifiable information. I'm just going to give it based upon the signals and the your clicks and what you're interested in. And I'll build it for you dynamically with generative AI technologies. That's going to be a really interesting for luxury brands and other organizations and B2B, because then users be able to sort of consume what is available, and you'll be able to surface that actually based upon what their interests are. And that filters that obviously then starts to add further value to your brand and experience.

I think it would be really interesting to talk about whether some of the explanation for the differences we've talked about comes down to patterns of capital. I wonder if when we think of luxury brands, we think of, you know, family businesses based in northern Italy. You know, increasingly obviously bought up by LVMH or whatever. But, you know, we think of these kind of businesses that have been around for a very, very, very long time. A lot of high end luxury business. I mean, Charles, you're a partner of this business. So that's a a partnership is again probably slightly has a longer terme outlook perhaps. And see Alex and Claire and Sheila and Ben, we've all talked about working for businesses that are going through very rapid change very frequently. And in a venture capital private equity IPO next year, that probably potentially drives a different attitude, maybe. Is that kind of part partly one of the reasons why potentially luxury. I mean, Charles, you talked about having clients for 20, 30 years. Maybe Oracle has had clients for 20 years. IBM maybe. But. It's probably quite, quite different outlook. Maybe.

Well, I'll give our point of view. Um, I think the point about being a partnership is distinct to to Burgess. We have six competitors. We are the only partnership. Right? Um, at the same time, we've always fostered a bit of collaboration between the company. Um, it's a commonly used firm, but the 360 sell between brokerage charter yacht management is a real structural impediment in Burgess. I know other companies do have it on their website, but I would question whether it has a structural pipework that that we have. Um, fundamentally, we we give less commission but a higher wage. I mean, that's the obvious example where this is promoted to cross-sell.

Um, turn perspective perhaps.

And and we are here to brag a bit. We are the number one in every sales sector about 50m, 50, 60, 60, 70 above 100m. We are the number one brokerage house in each sector. So, um, you know, we're not, um, egotistical enough to not know. There's lots we can learn from lots of places. But I think you're right to say the structure we have, the longevity that breeds, does benefit us.

In the B2B guys think that if a B2B commercial organization was structured more like John Lewis or more like a family business, or perhaps more like a partnership, it would drive a longer time perspective.

I think we've become, uh, very dictated to by the stock exchanges predominantly, whether you're on the stock exchange or not. Sort of doesn't matter. It's that rhythm that goes with it, that quarterly business. Even if your sales guys have annual targets, you're constantly looking at, well, how have we performed this quarter? What have we done this quarter? So it inevitably drives that shorter time frame. Now there is that wonderful quote and I'll never remember who it's from that says, you know that the art is to manage Short terme and Long Terme. Anybody can do short terme, anybody can do long terme, but it's the two together that is really critical. And I think we do get skewed in B2B by being far too short terme and then that does drive that transactional behavior. It doesn't drive that long. Terme relationship. And how many organizations in B2B are. Susceptible to focusing more on the new logo than they are on their customers. And again, that's sort of indicative of where we're at. It's constantly driving that new piece instead of necessarily looking after and that relationship. It's back to that. What are you nurturing for? We're nurturing for business. We're not nurturing for a long terme relationship to cross-sell and upsell. Now, I'm not saying that that's the organization I'm in now, but that's definitely sort of part of the common thread of communication you get through a B2B organization.

Maybe we could be a bit radical, you know, and I totally agree with you, Sheila. You know, for coming from my background has always been startups, the acquisition and sale. You're always on that three year, three year, ten year if you like. Um, but maybe we maybe the time now is that B2B tech organizations change their mindset. And you think, yes, you're always leading towards a sale. But if you think about the personnel and this in this world, you know, the marketing function tends to be pretty solid. There isn't as much there is some movement, but people tend to stay longer in the roles. So maybe that's where the. Yeah, exactly. Maybe that's where the effort needs to be in that long terme relationship building. I don't want to use the word nurturing, but that well, it is nurturing. But that long time relationship building, and it's only when it becomes at the point where there is real defined interest. And I, I'm not a rocket scientist, so I can't tell you when that's going to happen. But then you bring in sales, because if I think about the changing of account owners and, you know, just even what we're going through now and that account mapping and all those things, you know, it's almost like every six months, you know, uh, a bank will have a new account manager. You know, I think that's.

Another interesting point, though, isn't it? With B2B is who are you building the relationship with in a luxury goods organization? You're building the relationship with the brand, with the organization. In B2B, we seem to think it's about the relationship with the salesperson, and it shouldn't be about that. And yet we allow it to be about that. It should be about building that relationship with the organization and trust. And if I go back 20 odd years to IBM, when IBM was like the big behemoth and they were talking about solution selling and targeting people outside of that sales cycle and everything else. Yes, everything is cyclical. And I'm wondering whether actually that's really where we should all be going and what we should really be talking about, because that's that relationship building that's that longer tum aim, that's that talking to people before. They're just at that point where they're about to put out an RFP, you know, and all those sorts of conversations that we sort of inevitably get drawn into and that maybe B2B, particularly technology, has become too greedy in its transactions and needs to start going back to being more relationship.

Yeah, and a couple of examples. Uh, when I was at access, you know, quite rightly so, every pound of marketing spend had to have an ROI. And what were we getting back from that? Uh, however, the different divisions and one division that I was running in hospitality, we thought, yeah, we're doing really well, but how could we do something a bit more long Terme we started this programme and it was before Covid and ran through Covid, which was less identified. The top 50 people in the industry, that could be decision makers of the future. So people that are in bars and restaurants maybe didn't have a GM role, but they were quite high up and they looked like their profile and we found them through their nominated for awards or the current clients we're talking to that we were already engaged, and we had a programme that would literally offer them free resources, free training, and it was really great through Covid because what we did is we gave them lots of free advice and help and hooking them up. And then at the end of the period, we ran it for about three years. We found that the majority had migrated and migrated to being customers from us because we just built this long terme thing and it was all about giving and not getting anything back. And then most of the the people who started and were running the campaign for us, they'd moved to other roles and everyone forgot about it. And it was only when we then looked at me, didn't we do this thing we started three years ago. We gave all this really great stuff away, and they were like, yeah, let's, let's look how many are customers? And we looked through and said the majority. And it just worked. And it was as simple as identifying 50 people. What could we give it? Let's run it for a long period of time and let's try and, uh, find the stars of the future and know that as long as they're passionate about the industry, they'll stay in that industry and they will have senior jobs. So they ultimately. Yeah, that's a.

Nice thing to be able to do, to think, you know this. Yeah. Okay. They are uh, you know, they're in a company now or perhaps they're between jobs, but they're the sort of person that we want to build a relationship is like, you know, in Charles's world, perhaps they don't have a yacht at the moment, actually, but still maintaining relationship with them. They're between yachts. You know, what a terrible place to be. But boys.

Charles's boys.

Charter.

Yeah. They're. Yeah. Chartering. Exactly. But, you know, you think that at some point like that. Well, you actually gave an example earlier on, didn't you? This person was chartering yachts and eventually they went into purchasing the yacht. Yeah. I mean, I think the worst. Sorry, Chris can go.

Back to Sheila's point because I just thought I just think that was a really interesting point there. And as someone who kind of works across B2C and B2B, that's the one thing that I had written down as the biggest difference between luxury and B2B is that it's the focus on brand building. And as as someone who aspires to buy a luxury watch one day, I know which brand I want already, and there's probably no changing that unless there's some scandal within that watch brand that makes me not want to buy them, but I but I don't think you would ever have that situation as a B2B buyer where before you go into market, you know what the solution is. You're always going to run into RFP because you don't have that emotional connection with a brand. And and not saying that it's ever going to be the same because they're very different circumstances, you know, buying groups and whatnot. But um, but it for so long, communications and B2B has has been the preserve of rational, you know, communications. And that's all all B2B brands are really doing. There's a massive, uh, opportunity for, for adding in emotion. And there's thought leaders out there now who are really banging the drum for this. John Lombardo from the from LinkedIn, B2B Institute, talking about emotions seven times more powerful than ration when it comes to decision making. And we kind of stopped talking about B2B and B2C when it comes to strategic planning. At Wunderman Thompson, we just talk about human to human now, and the situation is different, but the same rules of brand building apply. You're still because we were cavemen once, and we always decided on things that we were familiar with. We prefer buying familiar brands. And, you know, the that tens of thousands of years of evolution haven't changed that. So, um, it's not going to change any time soon. So, um, yeah, I think that's a really that brand building point is a really interesting one.

That brand discussions are very interesting, isn't it?

Because B2B and all of us, I'm sure, have been very guilty of it. And any new CMO coming into an organization, particularly in the B2B world, is exceptionally susceptible to wanting to change the brand. And it's like, no, you know, back to your point, Tom, earlier and talk about Charles's organization. You know, they've been around for years. Look at the big people that have been around for years, that have that longevity of loyalty, that longevity of time. They stand for something because they have that consistency over time. And if as B2B marketers, we are constantly changing up our brand, whether it's changing it visually, which is just one part of brand, or whether it's trying to change the whole perception of it, we've got to be very, very careful with that. When people are, we're expecting people to buy in to that experience and brand value. How do they buy into it if we keep changing it?

But I think I would start maybe slightly challenge that in a way. Sheila, I, I totally agree with you, but a counter side is if I look at our world is, you know, when you've got if I look at the situation today I'm in we've got two, two competitors now coming together just because we happen to be owned by the same private equity company, you know, how do you then you know, people that bought Forgerock, you turn around to the the decided to buy forgerock against Penn and go, hey, it's all right. You know, surely. Is that not an opportunity to rebrand and reset the stage and say, you know, things are things were as here they were today here we're going to be tomorrow. So I think there's there might be a time and a place or the right place, I don't know, I don't have the perfect answer, but I think I understand the longevity of brand and customer loyalty right the way through. But I think there are times when perhaps a change is a good thing.

Sometimes you don't have a choice as well. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I think some of the worst B2B marketing actually is still stuck on on not even a relationship with a salesperson, but actually a relationship with features, you know, features and benefits. Which of course I know is something we've been fighting against for five, you know, ten years. I was interested, Charles, to hear you talk about, you know, people deciding the yacht based on the color of the gray rather than, you know, the number of cylinders in the engine and a number of bedrooms and the which suggests that there is very much an emotional or storytelling or, you know, non-rational side of things when it comes to luxury as well as I.

Suppose there has to be when you're parting with that much money, it has to be the emotional buy in to it and what the better. You know what we'd be mostly, or what I mostly do is, um, you know, the second hand market, which is, um, you know, um, but they also do we, we do build yachts as well. And the better yards are very good at bringing the client along in the build journey. If you're putting down six, 50 million into into a project that may take 3 to 4 years, um, rather than just take the money and later deliver it, they're very good at bringing you along. And so they'll take you to the quarry in Italy to choose the marble that goes in your bathroom. So later, when you're showing your friends round, you have these stories to tell about about the, um, the decisions you've made. Um, so, yeah, I think it is, uh, when it's done at its best. And of course, some clients oddly don't want to do that and just want to pay the money and get the boat. But when it's done particularly well, I think that's the client journey is very well. Uh, yeah. Very well. Um.

Yeah.

This is more it's a.

More comprehensive view of the boat than we were speaking with, uh, lady from Bentley who's coming on next week. Um, who was talking about, you know, the olden days. Aston Martin. Bentley used to sell. To men almost exclusively and almost exclusively sold through track days. Horsepower, number of cylinders. And they say now it's completely different. 60% of Bentley's market is women now, they believe. And their way of marketing, the sorts of things they emphasize is much more holistic. They talk about the number of stitches per inch in the upholstery, and they never talk about the horsepower. They do their events not on track days, but in, you know, a with yachts in Brighton, in pavilions with, you know, different, different ways of marketing. I'm interested. Chris, do you see like in your I mean, there's clearly an investment in storytelling and brand in the most holistic long, you know, longer terms sense than just it's got 16 cylinders. That's more than the 15 it had last year by the new version. Do you see when you're working for, I don't know, a family owned luxury brand based in northern Italy or whatever, versus a venture backed, private equity backed like company. Do you is there is it true that the family businesses or the partnerships like Charles's are able to take longer time decisions and invest much more in storytelling and brand over a long period of time? Do you see a difference at all or.

Um, I think well, I think actually they're better at it because, um, the story has been the one red thread throughout the company's history, the family stories. They've got a very emotional story that they can use straight away. It is it is a definitely a more difficult task for B2B companies. Um, I think like the question that that one of our strategists always asks in, in B2B, kind of first in initial engagements with clients is what would you say in an ad if you couldn't feature your product? And you probably you might not be surprised, but you get a lot of blank faces in quiet rooms when you ask that question, because nobody's really thought about what the the emotional story of the brand is. Um, and I mean, I'm thinking of an example, but, um, we've kind of done, you know, we've done engagements with Ikea looking at their B2B proposition. And, um, that was all about the kind of business network and how Ikea could be a conduit to, to forming kind of business networks. And then, you know, people are moving offices and they get rid of furniture. All of a sudden they've got a marketplace to sell second hand furniture to and stuff like that. So for small business owners, it gave Ikea a purpose within the B2B market. Mm. Um, and the same with Microsoft. We did a really interesting kind of social campaign looking at how, they all of their products basically helped with work life balance. And it was all about work life balance as a story rather than the products themselves. So I think, you know, it's a really interesting thing to workshop. And when you start to look at the the benefits that your products bring that aren't directly related to the job, that you know, could be how it helps the the buyer's life in general or you know, their experience with the company, then it's a really interesting one.

Alex, you've had both of these sides of things. Access Group clearly has great brand power, but at the same time bought up so many smaller companies that whose brands were then erased. And you then had to build a relationship with access Group air, for example, or whatever it was, whatever it became from scratch. And I mean, you've given us example of one way of doing that, I suppose.

Yeah. Another one could it can be a negative. So a really good example of, uh, there was a recruitment software company called Vin Cherry. All they did all day long is say, don't go with a big access group. Don't go with these big suppliers. Come with us. We're agile, we'll care and we'll look after you the moment access. And we again go and buy them. They go. What we're going to say on the phone now because we've lost the main, you know, all our marketing was, was around that. And that's interesting how you then have to they have to pivot to a different, uh, message. And again, I think that's an interesting part around getting people in a room saying, what are you going to talk about without the products there in tech? It's so much demo led. Oh, here, let me show you one of these where with my teams I was running. I was trying to like do demos at the last. Don't do them. Go and talk to people about their business and try and find out, you know, the challenges and how you can help them. We're touring in the B2B market again, led by let me show you something because I feel comfortable with that. Um, where again, if you look at Aston Martin, some of the way they do, it's all about touching and feeling and emotions and passion and driving. Not about. Yeah, you know, how many horsepower and what it does. And so so that's a good, good thing. I think we could probably learn more from from that luxury market.

Thank you all so much for coming on today. We're just coming to the end. So I wanted to. Yeah. Just, uh, say to you all, thank you. This has been absolutely fascinating. We genuinely didn't know how this conversation was going to go and whether we would have any touchpoints. But I think, um, I think some really, really interesting insights for me. I think I'm really looking forward to, to kind of boiling this all down, writing it up. Thank you Charles, Alex, Chris, for giving us the luxury perspective. And Sheila and Ben and Claire, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experiences. And it's been a great, great episode. Thank you very much, guys.

It's been brilliant.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Bye bye.

Thank you. Take care.

Bye bye.